Erica_Robinson
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[00:00:00] I recently had the privilege of having a conversation with the incredibly talented Erica Robinson, a traveler, educator, and storyteller who has embarked on a deeply personal project titled Under the Pencil. Through this project, Erica not only shares her intimate journey with cancer, but also opens up a platform for other women to express their own unique experiences.

Drawing parallels between her competitive swimming days and her battle with cancer. Erica's story is one of resilience, community, and the power of personal representation. In this episode of TWiP, we dive deep into the emotions, insights, and inspirations behind Under the Pencil.

All right, folks, welcome back to the podcast. I am your host, Frederick Van Johnson. Today on the show, I have the opportunity to sit down with Erica Robinson. [00:01:00] She's like I said in that little intro tease there, she's put together a project. A very important project called Under the Pencil. We're gonna dive into what it's all about.

Um, spoiler alert, it's, it's about, uh, her journey and her, her desire to empower Other people that have walked the same journey when it comes to cancer and diagnosis and dealing with it and Communicating with others about what you're going through all that stuff so we're gonna have a conversation about that project and that that whole unfortunate world that a lot of us have been touched by and Just kind of what makes her tick as a photographer and as somebody who's using the medium to tell important stories or to shed light on On important stories, you know, thereby at the end of it, hopefully making the world a better place through the power of photography.

So Erica Robinson, welcome to the podcast. How's it going? [00:02:00] Hey, thank you. So, so much. It's amazing. It's great. Um, and thank you so much for the Not just the intro, but the trigger warning for people too. I think that that's really important to share right off the bat what we're going to be talking about because it can get a little heavy at times.

So we'll try and keep it light, of course, but just so that everyone's aware what the topic is on. I appreciate you doing that. That was really nice. Yeah. No, no, for sure. For sure. Yeah. And it's important. It's an important topic. And you know, you can't always be, you know, the latest computer, AI, VR, and all that stuff.

That, I think, and this is a good way to kick off the conversation, because the tools that we use and the tools that we obsess over all the time as photographers or just people that enjoy technology, in the end, they're devices to allow us to tell stories to other people, right? And to share our experiences, and not just about, hey, I had this gorgeous looking lunch, let me share it with everybody.

The tools when used in a serious [00:03:00] way can really enlighten people and help people to let them know that they're not alone in their journey or different ways that they can, you know, or different things that they can do to, to, uh, make the journey less taxing, all these things. So thank you for putting this, this project together and thank you for coming on the show.

So I want to, I want to start with just sort of a background on you, on Erica Robinson. What, what makes you tick? We're going to dive into the, you know, the, the project and all that, but just you as a person, you as a person, what, what makes you tick? What, what motivates you? What's, uh, you know, where, where do you want to be?

You know, if you could snap your fingers right now, what would everything look like around you? What are you stressing? What are you, uh, striving for in your life? Oh, that is a big question. We started, we went right in. Um, I just go straight for the bone marrow. It's like right in there. Well, um, I'd say, I'd say there's something new every day, probably that makes me tick.

Um, I have been a [00:04:00] photographer nearly my whole life. Um, I knew I wanted to be in the arts in some way and where I went to high school didn't have too much in the form of art. So I went to a local community college and, um, Took some art courses there. I took some photography classes there. That way I could see if that's really what I wanted to do.

And it. was. And so it really, it spiraled for sure. Um, but I think that there's something new every day that inspires me, whether it's a conversation with someone or a new plant that I've found. I'm very lucky. I live in Southern California, so I have all this beautiful flora and fauna, um, uh, or it's a hike with friends or something.

I think there's, I think there's something new every day that inspires me. Yeah, it's in here. Yeah, and it's not it's I don't know if it's every day, but for me, it's like there's seasons I don't even know what what the seasons are But every now and then I get this wild hair and I'm just obsessed over a particular topic whether it's I don't know It could be anything not necessarily photography related, but then you draw you dive down into that topic.

[00:05:00] I think that keeps it That keeps it fresh and it keeps us exposed, or at least me personally, exposed to different things, different ideas, different techniques, whatever. Um, but in, in the context of this story, um, you're under the pencil project. So let's, let's start with the beginning of that journey to the inception.

Absolutely. And the, the, the kind of... that project, the under the pencil project coming to fruition. Let's just dive into it. How did it all start in the beginning? Yeah, well actually, so it, um, it wasn't even supposed to be a project. It wasn't, there was no intention for it to be a project. And, um, I was incredibly disconnected from my cameras at that point.

Um, like I said, photography is something that's been with me nearly my whole life and my camera has always been the tool to help me express what I was trying to express and share the stories that I thought needed to be told. And at that point, um, in my cancer journey, I was really disconnected from my [00:06:00] camera.

I couldn't figure out the, I couldn't figure out the way that felt. appropriate for me to share what I was trying to share. Everything that I put out, you know, I worked really hard on, but There's, I feel like a lot of times there's this, um, kind of pressure from the arts world to produce something when a trauma happens, whether it's to you or to your friends or to your family, or you see something happening, you know, there's this kind of pressure to produce some form of art and I felt that pressure immediately, actually, as soon as I got sick, so I had a big disconnect from my camera and this was the point where I had made a photo uh, made a self portrait right after I came home from a terrible MRI.

Um, for those of us who have been in situations and had to get all sorts of different MRIs, um, you'll know what it means by getting a PICC line. Um, typically when you're getting an MRI that, that requires, [00:07:00] um, Uh, um, requires an injection. You'll get that done through a, uh, vein and you need that for contrast and such.

And uh, unfortunately when I went in for this one, they couldn't find a vein because my veins had been completely trashed due to chemo. Um, and so they told me I was going to get a deep vein ultrasound so that, uh, I could have a, a have a, a, a better m r i a better outcome. And I thought that just meant that they were gonna take the, you know, the goo and stick it on my arm and they were just gonna find a better vein.

Um, I was very wrong. Uh, they wanted to do a PICC line, which meant that they had to do like a little surgery right on the inside of my arm to put an incision in and, uh, put a PICC line in directly to, uh, a catheter in directly to get the, the contrast. So, in doing that, I just was... At that point, not in a very good place mentally, there was all sorts of unknowns that had still been going on.

And every day it felt like I had to make a change to even just live. And this just kind of set [00:08:00] me over the edge. So I came home and I made this portrait and it felt wrong. It just didn't feel finished. It uncooked meal where I, you know, It was, first of all, a terrible portrait talking about, like, equipment and such.

This was, I didn't even set any lights up. I didn't set up a backdrop. I didn't set up anything to make. What I would vision is, you know, the perfect portrait. I used my wall in my living room and I set up my camera and I was holding the trigger behind my head. Um, and so the portrait itself was not necessarily, uh, perfect in any, any way of the word, but that's exactly it is that it wasn't.

It wasn't supposed to turn into a project. This was something that I was creating as an art form for me to try and understand what was going on inside of myself. Once I finished it, I brought it up onto my iPad and, uh, at that point, writing was really my My, my form of expression. And so I started writing all over this portrait.

I [00:09:00] wrote the medical jargon that was difficult to understand. I wrote the, uh, emotional side of it. I wrote the kind of like witty, sarcastic style of it that fits my personality. And it just spiraled from there. It was the first time that I felt heard, even if I was the only one listening. To myself, I felt heard for the first time.

Wow. See, that's, that's powerful. There's a, there's a bunch to unpack there, because I wanted to, the, just the part about the, the creativity or the creative journey and how the mindset, your mindset shifted once you were diagnosed. I want to, I want to explore that just a little bit. So the shift of mindset or the, the pre diagnosis creative mindset.

You know, not, not to put words in your mouth is, Oh, this is, what can I be? What can I make next? This is exciting. What can I, how can I inspire people with my work? Or how can I tell new stories with my work? And then the diagnosis happens. [00:10:00] So, assuming that was, uh, the, the optimistic perspective was your mindset prior to the diagnosis, after the diagnosis, and after it had, you know, some time to set in, and before you, you know, started in earnest on this Under the Pencil project, what, how do you think it changed, or did it, did it change at all?

Like you say, people expect you to, oh, you're an artist, you must channel your pain. So that we can all understand it better, you know, and you know, a lot of artists will resent that like, Hey, you know, I'm just human. I don't want to always be an artist. I don't want to use my superpowers all the time. How did it affect you on the on the creative side?

So it shifted definitely shift a lot of things. First of all, I wasn't very used to having the camera being directed at me. I was very much not used to having the camera at me. I'm used to being the one behind the camera talking with people or learning a new space and sharing that story, not about me. So now I'm going to be in the, in the public eye.

[00:11:00] And again, even if I had no intention of making this necessarily public, it was something where it still felt invasive in a way that I wasn't used to. So I had to get used to that. Invasiveness in see it in a, in a good way and see it in a way that felt productive and felt real and felt raw, because the more honest I was with myself, the better I was able to portray that I wasn't trying to create something that didn't exist.

I was trying to share something that already existed, and it was just about the language of getting it across. So I think it shifted a lot of how I approach my photography from here on out. Yeah. And it's a, it's a, it's a change, right? It's not a temporary, Oh, you know, uh, now I'm through that storm now it's, it's more of a permanent indelible kind of dist or a directional change in your creative journey, right?

After, after the Diana, do you agree with that? That, okay, this thing happened and now I'm just a different person. I'm a different artist and I have different things to [00:12:00] tell and different perspectives and then a lot of people, Oh, absolutely. Yep. Absolutely. Um, there's no, yeah. Going back, really, you have this experience that completely changes you as a human being.

So there isn't any like, it's not like, you know, we were talking earlier about iOS systems and having to go back to an iOS system and update to an iOS system. Like, it's not like I can just shut down my iOS system, revert to one, and then come back to the other when I have all my firmware updates. Like, no, it's, it's here and it's here to stay.

So, yeah, it's a ratchet. One, one direction only, whether you like it or not, you know, the, on the, on the project. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's definitely a ratchet, uh, on the, on the under the pencil project. Um, obviously, you know, the inspiration is your own personal journey. Um, what, what kind of inspired you to kind of dive in and share it more broadly and engage with other people going through the same thing?

Was it like, what, where was that coming from? Was it, was it coming from a [00:13:00] place of me helping people? therapeutic for me or was it more altruistic? Like, Oh, I just, I know what's going on with these people. So let me help them. Because I feel like I, what I'm doing helped me. So let me help them. How to, how did that project kind of start forming in your, in your brain?

So first I think it had to do with the, of the uniqueness of everybody, of every individual's diagnosis. So I was in a position where, um, you know, I could have a, um, I could have a clone, right. And let's say I have twin. Um, and my twin and I are diagnosed with the exact same disease at the exact same time, um, exact same size tumor, who knows, right.

Um, but there's something about us. individually different, right? One of us could be married. One of us could have kids. One of us could live in California. The other could live in Ohio. Like there's just so many different pieces to this puzzle that there's never a it's not cookie cutter. And [00:14:00] so I knew that from the very beginning that I didn't want to be seen as a number in and in a hospital where they're just, you know, Diagnosing me based on what everybody else has done, I wanted to be seen as a human being and as I started to, to get in touch with the community a little bit more, I realized how unique we actually are and how I'm not the only one that wants to share that voice and after I, um, after, you know, a little, little light went off, a little switch went off and I said, you know, this was beautiful for me.

Um, I got in touch with, yeah. My, we call them, uh, we call them breasties. So, um, if you have a friend in the cancer community and the breast cancer community, you call them your breastie. And I really had, um, my, my one breastie in the community. I wasn't. I wasn't very involved in the community at that point, and she was, she actually started a non profit who, um, is helping sponsor my event, um, but her, her and I sat down one day and I said, you know, I, I [00:15:00] did this portrait and this was really cathartic for me, do you think you'd want to try it?

And before I even finished the sentence, immediately she was in, she was like, absolutely, I'm down, 100%. So we, uh, she came over, we made a portrait, and then, um, we actually took it, I, I uploaded it into my iPad where she's going to be writing in Procreate, we brought it down to the park, and we sat outside for three hours, I just laid there and watched and Watch the world go by and she sat there and wrote and I thought that, you know, I had a list of questions kind of prepped and ready to go thinking that I would have to prompt her to you know, kind of help her remember some pieces of her journey and See what else you might want to add to this but no within those three hours she just continued to write She looked up at me twice and one of those was because she had to pee and the other was because she forgot how to spell a word so like at that point I knew there was something really special about this Because she was so invested in what she was doing, and I think she, at that point, [00:16:00] started to hear herself, too, just like I felt myself, or I, I, I heard myself.

So, I think that's when it clicked for me that this was something really special. Yeah, yeah, and it is. Yeah, this is, this is important. I've, I've seen the projects where people kind of, you know, sort of expand on this. I, I, a while ago, I did an interview with a woman who was a, who was a victim of, um, abuse, you know, from, from within the family and she wanted, and there are nuances in there, as I've learned through that, through that conversation, there are nuances in, in that, in the, when you're a survivor of that trauma, there are nuances within how you feel about it and how you interact with other people and how you tell other people about it.

that lay people don't really understand or internalize. You kind of have to have, you know, walk through the minefield in order to understand how scary it is in the minefield and try to articulate that to, to [00:17:00] other people. So that, that, this project is, it kind of resonated with me in a lot of ways.

Because I'm, my family has had cancer in it over the past couple of years. We lost my, uh, my older sister to cancer, my daughter in law to cancer. Yeah, my other older sister, I have two sisters, I had two sisters. My surviving older sister, um, I guess is a breasty, you know, so she is a survivor. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, and this is, meanwhile, all this is going on through COVID.

So, imagine the hospital situation with quarantine and only certain people can go in during certain times. Yeah, it was crazy. So yeah, so I get all that so I'm uh, yeah, so thank you for doing this project I think it's really really important for people to have this view into how it all Happens and how they're feeling and to sympathize with other people that are on different Yeah, let's say different points on their journey with the [00:18:00] disease, you know, and how to deal with it and how other people have dealt with it.

So they can kind of internalize and deal with it themselves. Um, yeah. And this is the, I'm going to bring this, this photo up. This is your website here. So this is the, this is Erica Robinson photo. com and this is your under the pencil cancer project. So, and this is the first photo you were talking about before this one right here.

So you, just to, just to geek out for a quick second here. So looking at this photo, uh, you mentioned Procreate and you, like, you didn't say yeah, I just took this photo and then I went and sat down at my Mac and I edited it in Lightroom or Capture One or whatever, Photoshop, you, you just said like nonchalantly, yeah, I took this photo and then I grabbed my iPad and I started editing it and, you know, I So is that your flow?

Like, is your, is your flow mobile now or, or was that just, you know, just for this one? I'm going to do it. No, it is. It is mobile now. Um, so I have a, a Westcott, um, lighting set up that I purchased after Christian, my, [00:19:00] my breasty after she, um, did her portrait. Um, and I knew this was going to be something unique.

I went all in and I got a Westcott lighting set up and, um, typically how the, how the day goes. I mean, the day, the process is quite long. Um, because the women that I've so far worked with, some of them have never met. Most of them have never met me in person before. We've talked online and I haven't put this out there as far as, you know, I haven't reached out to people necessarily to do this.

They've all found me because you have to be ready for this type of project. Um, it's a really vulnerable thing. You should be really ready for it. So Um, they typically have found me, um, and when they, when they come to the studio, we end up talking for probably a good hour before we even make any photos because I have to get to know, I have to get to know them and what they're trying to share in order to help them be in front of a camera in a way that they're going to be proud of.

And in a way that they're going to feel that [00:20:00] they're, they were able to share their narrative because you can't just do like, I mean, portraits for portraits at a wedding and, and engagement portraits and, um, you know, uh, kids and family portraits. They're, they're beautiful, but those types of poses don't really, don't really translate over to these types of portraits.

So a lot of the photos that end up working actually are the ones that. We didn't think we're going to be the one, like you have this picture in your head about what the outcome is going to be and it doesn't usually end up being that. Um, but so yeah, we usually we spend a good hour or so together talking.

Just talking about our situations about our lives and who we are and what we're trying to share and the the pain and the beauty in all of it and Then we make portraits and I let that take as long as it has to take until we both feel readied and say, okay I think there's one in there that feels good and I show them the back of my camera the whole time.

I'm Working on getting a tethered system, but that will [00:21:00] take a little while. Um, but I, I show them the images the whole time to make sure they see what they look like and what's going on. Um, from there, I uploaded them into my computer and I actually use Lightroom to allow them the, the, the full ability to call through.

So they do it on their own. So I explained to them a little bit about Lightroom so they can see their whole film strip. And then I have them go through and advance and go back and forth and rate. Once, and then we go back through and we rate twos, we go back through and we rate threes and we go through until we find one that is the one that feels like it's the most of them.

Um, and after they choose that, it goes up into my iPad. I don't do any editing from there. Um, it just goes right into my iPad into procreate and procreate is an illustration tool. And so I have my, my pencil, my Apple pen, and they just write. And I explained to them a little bit about Procreate. It's a really simple program that [00:22:00] the only kind of three things that they're going in between is the different layers, the different colors, and the thickness of the pen.

So it's a pretty simple program to get into. And they just write. They hang out here at my apartment, or we go sit on the porch, or we go to the park. And. They get a chance to really actually say what they're trying to say with no photographer, like with no other artist bias in there. They are physically doing the writing and I think that's what's so unique and beautiful about it is that I'm not putting my words into it, they're physically doing the writing.

Yeah, I was looking at these I was wondering if that was the case, you know the the handwriting on here I was wondering how that happened, you know, was it done in Photoshop? Did you just have them scribble on a piece of paper and then you brought it in, you know What kind of passage by passage or or what or was it already written on a?

Did you have a piece of clear glass in front of them and then they wrote on that? Yeah, I was [00:23:00] wondering. It's kind of cool. I like that You see, yeah, there. Yeah, those those glass whiteboards Yeah, this is, this is's cool. And they all look so at ease though, like all the, the, the folks that you're interviewing and doing these, these, these, uh, these portraits of they look comfortable in front of the camera.

So this, when I look at a series like this, this is one of those areas where You have to be in the club in order to do this kind of photography, right? You can't like a, yeah, like I couldn't go in there and do this shot. Like this is, this is not in, in the, this is not accessible to me as a photographer, even as a photojournalist to do this kind of shot.

Cause you have to be in the club and understand and sympathize with what's going on. And then there's being a female to get, you know, these, that vulnerable level of shots, you know, cause you don't want that like modesty coming in between you and the camera and kind of obscuring the message that you're trying to tell.

So you know, you can empathize and all that drops [00:24:00] away and you do the, you do the photography and all these were shot with. There's a lot It's a lot. It's, it's. They, they come to me, right? So like I'm, I would never want to pressure this on somebody because you have to be ready for it. So I, I wait, you know, if they know the project's available and then they come to me and say, yes, I want to do it and some women have changed their mind and then they come back a month later.

Great, like you, you'd have to be ready and that's, they know that coming into it. So there isn't any sort of surprise. Right. And I try and give them as much information as possible so there is no surprise. So that all has a lot to do with it too. I want them to be comfortable with this. I did this project.

I was in front of the camera too. So I, I want them to know that this is a safe space for them. So take us through, take us through the, the, the journey of these photographs. Or the journey in one of, one of these, uh, one of, one of your, your, the participants in the project here. From contact... To all the way through to okay, you know, we're done.

How what's that generally speaking? What's that flow like either they can't check [00:25:00] you or you reach out to them and then what what happens all the way through? So they do they they do reach out to me whether that's through a family member who has found my website somewhere or Instagram all my works on Instagram and A lot of that is shared through other breast cancer forums and non profits.

And so, kind of just through word of mouth, they've found the project somehow and have reached out and said, Hey, I would love to do this. I'm interested. Can you tell me more? And, um, I give them as much information about the project as possible and then we, we actually, there's only been two, maybe three, two or three women that I've met in person before the photo shoot, before we actually do the, the shoot itself.

Um, most of the women we've met the day of the photo shoot. So, um, before they come, I kind of give them a. Document of expectations. Um, not just with, you know, a phone number and an address and a time to show up, but I [00:26:00] give them a document of expectations of these are some things you might want to think about before we make photographs.

Um, what, what do you feel? is different now about your cancer experience than it was when it first began. What stage are you in your cancer process? Um, are you still in treatment? Are you out of treatment? Are you, what type of language and what type of vocabulary feels fitting to you when you think about your cancer journey?

And like, just kind of give them a laundry list of questions that kind of helps spark those, those Feelings towards our situation and those are some, those are some kind of really helpful starting points because I know that it can be overwhelming when you think about your entire cancer journey, right?

Like we said earlier, it's not something you just turn on and off like it's with you for the rest of your life. I mean, if you like it or not, it's in with you in some capacity for the rest of your life. So, [00:27:00] um, things can be kind of at the forefront. One day and then in the back of your mind the next day.

So all these questions, I kind of think help to keep those organized. Um, and then We choose a date to get together and they come to my house and we talk for a really long time and we make photos and a lot of us laugh, a lot of us cry, there's a lot that happens and these sessions can take anywhere from like the minimum has been about three hours, max has been about six hours, so sometimes they take a while, um, and a lot of what's kind of going through them that day.

Um, And one of the kind of beautiful additions to this that, um, my, one of my greatest friends from back home in Boston, uh, she's a brilliant author and journalist. And, um, when I kind of brought this project to her and I showed her what I was doing on the iPad, she actually had a beautiful idea that because this [00:28:00] is.

A digital concept. And because it's layered and procreate. So the, the, the art itself has the, the, the black writing layer, which is all of the medical jargon, the blue writing layer, which is more of the emotional side of it, um, and then the base layer, which is their, their image itself. Um, but she had a beautiful idea that because this is.

a digital layered file. Um, if one of these women calls me in a year, in five years, in 10 years and says, Hey, I have more, I need, I need to write more. I have more thoughts. Um, we can go back in and they can choose another color and we can write back on top of that. So it's something that can continue. Um, I have everybody sign and date after they've finished doing all their writing.

So that's their kind of first rendition. Um, I know that the, the woman you see in the top left corner there, Janet, um, She was in a specific time of her, her treatment where, um, she was very ready to do this, but knew that there might be more, um, because she had [00:29:00] just finished her, um, uh, her egg fertility retrieval at that point.

And she hadn't even yet started chemo. Um, and so there's going to be a lot of change from one step to the next in, in your journey. And so we've talked about maybe at some point when she's in a, in a good place and ready and. Interested in saying more and that's when we'll go back in and we'll add another layer to what she wants to share Yeah, so much so much like six hours and I wouldn't imagine it going anything shorter than that Right, because it's you know, it it's not just a photo session like coming here sit there, you know Three quarter lighting hair light.

Boom. Look at the bird, you know Send me my money, whatever. This is a, it's, this is, you know, it's, it's more of a connection in a lot of ways, just helpful kind of peer to peer therapy where people can have a conversation. You're going back and forth with somebody who's on a different path. And with that, with that different path, like if [00:30:00] someone, obviously there are lots of different kinds of cancer, right, that people can get.

Um, how do you, and do you feel the need to, to manage generalizing? the, just the overall effect of the big C word, you know, and without getting into the minutia of what it is for each particular person. Is it like, how do you approach this? Is it just, okay, you got the C word or you're being affected by the C word.

Now, you know, let's, let's discuss it and figure out how you're feeling about it and make the portrait. Or do you need to be more nuanced than that, uh, when it, when it comes to the different kinds of cancer that someone may be afflicted with? So I do actually have to be more nuanced than that. Um, there are, you know, one of the, the questions we talk about when we're getting ready to actually make the photos is what they want physically to show.

So not necessarily just what their face is going to say, but physically. Um, everyone's cancer being different, we have different surgeries. Some of us have a [00:31:00] lumpectomy. Some of us has a mastectomy. Some of us have double mastectomies. Some of us have expanders in some of us had radiation. Some didn't. Some have, uh, burns from that radiation.

Some didn't, some have nipples, some don't. Um, there's so many different physical, uh, attributes to this that I have to take into account. And, um, you know, I, I tell them when we first start making photos that this is just as much a challenge for me because. If, you know, let's say one, one woman wants to make sure that she shows her, uh, radiation markers, um, on her side or on her, uh, chest bone, um, but, uh, another woman doesn't want to show that, right?

We have to move and we have to pose in a way where we are, showing exactly what she wants to show without too much. So when I did my portrait, um, I was trying to physically show my radiation markers and, um, my, um, actually have burns in my, my armpit. Um, the [00:32:00] radiation. Because of where my tumor was, was at, uh, the radiation came in from three different sides and it burned a line through the, uh, middle of my armpit.

So my armpit hair only grows in one, on one side in one direction and it grows at different times. Um, so at that point I had stopped shaving so that I could visually show that, um, because I was trying to. Actually test in my mind. Okay, well, if I shave my whole armpit today, how long does it take to grow?

And does the top grow longer than the bottom and all that? So I actually had my hand in that position so that I could show the radiation marker going through. Um, and so, yeah, it is more nuanced than that because there are different, different boundaries that we each have both, both physically and mentally in the sense where, um, there's, there is a vulnerability on.

Showing everything, and it takes a lot internally to know that that's going to be public. So, [00:33:00] um, so, so yes, it's definitely, it's, it's a puzzle for each of us. Yeah. Well, everything, everyone, everything is unique. Right. And especially here, like where, where is there a, like where do you draw the line when it comes to like, how much is too much when you're sharing this stuff?

Like how, like how deep and how personal. Do you go, whether it's with another survivor or if it's with, you know, someone, you know, a civilian, let's say, you know, where, where is the line that you draw or is there? Is it no holds barred? What do you think? I think it's different every time. It really is. It depends on my mood, really.

Um, but there are some people that, you know, you can feel an energy from that you are completely comfortable and open. to talking about things and that they are ready to receive that information and then there are other people that are You know, when they ask you how you're doing, you can definitely feel that they're just asking you for a, Oh, [00:34:00] I'm great.

How are you? And that's okay. You know, this is a lot of information. And that was actually part of the beginning of this project for me was that when someone would ask me how I'm doing. You know, there's a lot that could be a minute or that could be six hours, you know, how much time you have. Um, so it's, it's, it was me trying to share the overwhelmed without overwhelming someone.

And that was where the writing came in was that. Here, if you want to see what's going on, everything is right here. It's a visual. Everything's right in front of you. Um, you don't have to, you know, sit and listen to it necessarily, but you can visualize all of it right there. And I can put it out all at once.

Instead of, instead of feeling like I'm, I'm constantly the topic or I'm constantly the, the one that's, uh, giving too much information, you know, I think it's different every time I have a conversation with someone. Yeah, it's a give and take, right? It's, you know, back and forth. Yeah, and you kind of feel it out as you're, it's like this [00:35:00] conversation.

You kind of, you, you, you play off the energy from the other person, and you kind of feel what's appropriate, what's not appropriate, and you, you know, we, we find our way, you know, even non verbally sometimes of what's, what's appropriate with an individual. And it may be completely inappropriate to talk about a certain subject with this person, whereas the next person is completely open and free about it, and you never know until you kind of, You tap you tap your way through there.

Um, you, if my notes are right, you were or are a competitive swimmer. Is that right? And are you so in? And how does it? How does that affect this work? And does it? Oh, it definitely does. Um, yeah. So I was a, I was a swimmer for 20 years up through college. Um, and then after that I was into, uh, weightlifting. I did crossfit for a while.

I was into ollie lifting. So I was, I've been involved in fitness nearly my whole life. Um, and when I [00:36:00] was diagnosed and actually up until recently, like I've had a very difficult, uh, Difficult friendship with food, um, because you constantly hear, you know, as a, as someone who now has a chronic illness, like you constantly hear, you should be eating healthy and you should be exercising and doing all these things to keep you healthy.

And if I, if I had one more medical professional tell me that I was going to lose my mind because I, and there's no more, there's not many more ways that I can say, like I've been. I barely drink. I drank like two or three times a year and I still got cancer. So, um, I had a really difficult relationship with that and a lot of that became visual because I lost like 15 pounds and it was all muscle and I have struggled to figure out it.

If and how I want a relationship with, uh, with food and with fitness again. And yes, I do. Um, but it's, [00:37:00] it's complicated. So, that definitely added to just the overall concept of this because it's your mindset. It's, it's not just a, it's not a perfect equation every day. It's your mindset and it's trying to show someone that, you know, yes, I lost all of this weight and yes, I may, you know, look healthy for whatever look healthy in the sense of the word means, but there's so much going on up inside our brains that that's no, not always.

Not always the case and we need to be really gentle with everyone who's walking around because everyone is, everyone is a story. Everyone, everyone has their own, everyone is their own story and I'm living with that every single day. So yeah, it's uh, I, as much as I love fitness and I will always be involved in fitness, it, it comes and goes with how I involve myself in that now.

Yeah, and, and the, the people around the survivors or people that are dealing with cancer now are also those people that you [00:38:00] have to kind of understand what they're going through. Because I remember when we first found out about my sister having it, and it was a particularly aggressive form, right? So it was fast.

And I remember thinking, Well, this can't be right. Cause she's like one of the best people I know on the planet. She doesn't smoke. She doesn't drink. She goes to church. She does all, they'll even curse. Like she's like one of those people that they don't really make anymore. And how, you know, how is this?

Isn't this stuff, isn't it supposed to be like the people that are, you know, bad or doing bad things or living life recklessly or Drinking all the time or doing drugs or whatever, shouldn't they get it? Why is this person getting it who has lived her whole life on this side? And if, if she can get it, then I'm doomed, right?

That's what I was thinking, because she's better than I am, and if she can get it, then, you know, the rest of us can just hang it up. I'm like that, that piece of it and just kind of Understanding, or trying to understand, I [00:39:00] still understand it, but just understanding that it's completely random was, was a struggle, right?

It's still a struggle, because you always learned, hey, do the right thing, eat your vegetables, be nice to people, do unto others, yadda yadda, whatever, right? You, you hear all that stuff your entire life. Until, you know, it just doesn't bear out with the randomness of the universe we live in. So do you find that, like, like dealing with the people that are, that are kind of in the periphery of the person that is directly affected by, by the disease, that they're, they're part of the story as well when you're, you know, kind of working through this and having those conversations with these, with these women?

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Because they're, you know, they're friends and family and their situation is all part of the equation. Right. Um, it makes, you know, it, it getting a, uh, having a, uh, chronic illness like this, like really brings you into neutral human form, remembering that we are all the same. [00:40:00] We are all absolutely the same.

And there is no one specific type of person who gets this at all. Right. So yes, it is, um, It's definitely a reminder that, or it is important that I note that their friends and family and their circumstances around them are a piece of what they are writing, they're a piece of what they're putting on to this, um, you know, I was, uh, very, very fortunate that my, um, So my sister and my mom actually moved out to California for a few months to help take care of me.

Um, and this was, you know, still during, during a bit of COVID time. So I was only allowed to have one person, um, in the treatment room with me. And my sister was my proxy. Um, she, she's, she's a biologist. She's in the sciences and she understands this stuff really well. And she's also my closest advocate for anything.

She is. The most amazing person I know. And um, she came out here and took care of me for a really [00:41:00] long time. And she was just starting a job and she had just gotten engaged, like, she had a lot going on herself and I constantly was feeling what, or, or, or, I constantly was empathetic and understanding to her role as a caretaker is watching her watch me go through this type of situation.

It. It's very complex and it's different for everybody. So I, you know, when I first started treatment, um, my first chemo treatment, I had to fight to have both my mom and my sister in the room because it was still COVID times and I was only allowed to have one person with me. Um, and then there are, you know, one of the other women that I worked with, she wasn't allowed to have anyone.

She wasn't allowed to have anyone her entire treatment. She got sick right at the beginning of COVID, could barely even find a doctor. She wasn't allowed to have anyone the entire time, all throughout chemo, all throughout radiation, all throughout surgery. Nothing. They had to leave her at the door. And so [00:42:00] that definitely, like, a lot of what we're writing isn't just the physical, I had surgery, right?

It's the next level emotional aspect to that, that is, I had surgery, but I did it alone. So that definitely comes into play in all of this. Wow. What do you think is one of the most, if not the most misunderstood aspect of, you know, from, from external or outside people when, when someone is diagnosed with cancer, what do you think the, like, is, is there an aspect that, that you've seen repeatedly that people just, you just don't understand, or you're saying the wrong thing or.

You know this this is how you talk to somebody who has just been diagnosed like have you seen any patterns that happen? Oh, yeah, there's a lot of them. I could we could go on like all hour about that There's a lot of them and it's not because anyone is right or wrong. That's the thing like I've said [00:43:00] So many times during this that two things can be true, um, and friends have told that to me and I've stolen that saying because it is perfect for this situation.

Two things can be true the entire time, um, but there's also a, um, you know, we're, we're all, we're all kind of learning this at a different pace. We're all navigating it in a different way. We are not robots. We are individual, unique beings. That's what makes this project so beautiful. Um, but there's a, there's a great podcast called, uh, thanks cancer that I was listening to when I was in treatment and they have a really great episode on the things.

People say both on the patient side and on the caretaker side or an advocate in some way, someone who's involved with a cancer, um, because none of us know the right thing to say it's like what somebody could say to me. An hour from now could be perfectly fine with me, but if they say that same thing in a week or a year, it [00:44:00] could feel awful.

So there is just no right thing to say. Um, yeah, it's just different for everyone, so there isn't any, any right. Way necessarily, but it's just about, I think, just being gentle and accepting that when, you know, I definitely bit back at my, you know, best friends and my family and my, my people who are taking care of me.

I bit back a lot because I. I was not used to being someone that needed to be taken care of, I was not used to someone, I was not used to being asked if I was okay all the time or, um, physically needing things and not being able to get out of bed. Um, I wasn't used to people trying to feed me, I wasn't used to any of that.

So... I definitely had to take a step back and accept those things, um, but I, I bit back. I was not the easiest patient for a little while and I think on my side, I then had to kind of come back to, okay, like let's, let's talk. Let me either like apologize for [00:45:00] what I said or make sure that we are, um, you know, on, on the right page.

I didn't mean to bite back at you. Like I'm just, I'm confused, I'm hurt and I'm confused and I need a minute. It's not you. Yeah. So. And by the way, that thumbs up you just saw was your computer with the new Mac OS. If you make certain gestures, like a thumbs up, it will, it will flip. That's what that was?

That's what it was. If you, if you put a thumbs up or a thumbs down, it will overlay an animation on your video. You can turn it off, but it defaults to on, I think. Does it give me two? There you go. Oh, so you get two thumbs up. Yeah. There you go. Wow. Good to know. That's new. Okay. I thought for a minute, I was like, Oh, did we switch and somebody's listening into this?

Cause okay. Right. Yeah. That's what I wanted to tell you. Cause I was like, no, this is not, we're not recording live. And you're like, Oh, people are thumbs upping this. He told me it wasn't live. Um, no, that's your, that's your camera doing that. [00:46:00] Um, yeah. So yeah, on that, I'm just curious with, I think in your, I don't know if it was your bio or on your website, but you mentioned that you are sarcastic and you have a quick wit and you are, uh, bust, what'd you say?

Bostonian. So from Boston. So how does that all play into, cause I'm picturing that scene with you, you know, uh, you know, in the hospital, in the bed being. Like, Oh, they said the wrong thing. And you're kind of like, in that mode. Like, how does it come out? I'm curious. Like, are you just like, you know, every other word is an F bomb and you just get out of here?

Like what? Yeah. You know, I don't want you to have to censor a lot of this. So I'm going to keep the swearing to a minimum. Um, yeah, I think, um, I think it came out a lot when I was, Mostly frustrated with my medical team. We're frustrated with medical professionals. I switched oncologist a few times and that's something [00:47:00] that, you know, patients need to be aware of is to advocate for your health, your safety, advocate for yourself.

And I was not comfortable with a certain medical team. And, um, At this point, the conversation that I was having was with a male oncologist who, um, is, I'm sure, absolutely brilliant and wonderful at his job, but our personalities just didn't match very well, um, and this was at the point where I was trying to, like, you're getting information almost like You're getting hard information almost every two weeks, right?

So from biopsy to mammogram to one piece of the diagnosis to another piece of the diagnosis Like everything's just kind of like compiling on it's like every two weeks. You're getting a new a new piece of information and that You know that that becomes really that's a that's heavy after a while. It's a lot to hold and This this oncologist was telling me that I would be able to tolerate a certain medication well and I would be able to tolerate it.

And, um, I was the language for me [00:48:00] is really important because that can be taken a lot of different ways. And, you know, I can, I have a full sleeve tattoo. This took 18 plus hours. I can tolerate 18 hours of needles being stabbed into my skin. I can tolerate 18 hours of a full sleeve tattoo, but Everyone has a different level of tolerate.

So what does tolerate mean with this medication that I'm going to go on? This medication is going to throw me into menopause at 35 years old. And that has a profound effect on my, on your mental health. You are going into chemically induced menopause where Your body hasn't been prepped for this. So you, your body hasn't been ready to say, okay, we're starting to slowly shut things down.

We're going to start to slowly go to sleep. No, a chemical comes in and tells your brain to turn off your ovaries at 35 years old. And that leads to hot flashes. That leads to insomnia. I wouldn't sleep for weeks. I had maybe an hour every now and then. Like I didn't sleep for a very long time. [00:49:00] Um, uh, hot flashes, night sweats, insomnia, um, memory loss, um, not just a physical toll but a mental toll.

And so he's telling me that I'm going to tolerate this and then I'm asking about, okay, well, what are some things that I can do that aren't Um, and what are some supplements that aren't in pill form that I can, I can take to kind of help me with this process. So I'm not just completely trashing my body.

And they would just continue to say yoga and meditation. And if I had one more medical professional telling me yoga and meditation, I was going to light them on fire. So talk about being sarcastic. I like, obviously I'm not going to light anybody on fire. Um, but. I'm really frustrating because I, I'm a white girl in Southern California.

I'm well aware of what yoga and meditation is like, I'm here in Southern California. I'm aware of what that is. And if that was the case, uh, I wouldn't have cancer in the first place. So that's not going to [00:50:00] be the thing to cure me. And so those were my like. kind of like a quick moment where I just kind of came in hard.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That. And I can't imagine the way you described it. So a male Oncologist or physician telling you that, okay, you know, take this pill. Yeah, sure. Early menopause. Yeah. You'll deal with it just fine. Somebody that cannot and have has not dealt with it telling you the person in the situation, you know, as he does his rounds that, Hey, you just take this one.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah, whatever. It'll do these things, but it's not a big deal, you know, as they move on. Yeah, I would have been pissed too. I probably would have had a couple of choice words. So yeah, that's uh, That's the journey. Yeah, and you think you think that uh, at least me for my own personal dealings with this stuff I had a certain level of expectation of, of, uh, I don't know.

I'm trying, I'm picking my words, right? Because [00:51:00] I had a certain expectation of, of medical professionals having aptitude in certain areas. Right. And it was like, I remember cause I'm like the nerd, right? I'm like, okay, she's got this. Let me read everything there is to know. Let me get online. Let me watch videos and kind of get myself up to speed on what's happening.

And I was asking them questions that they didn't have answers to. I'm like, You went to school. You're an oncologist. I'm like, I'm on YouTube and it says this right here. Can you very so the frustration from that, I think, especially if you're the person that's affected, I can't comprehend how you, you deal with that when you're at their beck and call and they're feeding you and they're making decisions about you and all this stuff and they may or may not be incompetent, you know?

So that's, uh, yeah. Yeah, that's tough. That's tough. And you're, you know, you've got a Bostonian kind of wit and sarcasm to mix.

Feisty [00:52:00] sometimes, you know, we're just a little feisty, but if it does like help just to, you know, kind of bring it back to neutral for, for them. Like, I really do respect my medical team very much. And just remember they are, it is practicing medicine. I had to regularly say that, like, we are not all built exactly the same.

I, we're not robots. So I understand that there's a practice to it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to find the doctor that's done practicing. You know

what I'm saying? It's like, I got it. I'm a pro now, you know, all that practicing stuff. All those people I practiced on, they led me to here and now I can do my thing. You know, uh, I'm joking. I'm joking. Yeah. Medical professionals. I have a huge respect for medical professionals. Just the, the few, you know, that some of the, the ones that I had to deal with with my sister just weren't.

You know, they weren't, they weren't, uh, let's just say they weren't on the team very long and then we moved on. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so back to Under the Pencil. So [00:53:00] the, the project itself, it's, there's an event involved. Take me, take me through it. Someone who, who's just now been exposed to Under the Pencil and this whole thing.

They're listening to our conversation. They're intrigued. They're going to head over to your website and your socials. And kind of see what's going on. Tell them about what's coming up with Under the Pencil. How, how is the event going to manifest? And then what's next for the project in the future? Sure.

Thank you. Um, so the, so Under the Pencil has so far been a, um, very One on one personal project. Um, and it will continue to be that. But I want also to make sure that these stories are heard around the world that they are that they are heard that that the women who have participated have felt heard and that they know that they're appreciated that their hard work, their investment is is there.

Um, so I'm going to be holding an event on November 5th at a place called Vivowax Cidery in [00:54:00] downtown San Diego. Um, from 2 to 5 in the afternoon, you can find it on my website, uh, if anybody's interested in coming along, it is open to the public. It is, it has two parts, so the first part is sort of like a photo gallery, right, so the 15 women who have been photographed, I will be photographing the last of the 15 next week, um, so the 15 women who have been photographed already.

It will be printed in full life size, 24x36, on, uh, cardboard and gator board. Um, Displayed from the ceiling instead of displayed from from a wall perspective. So it's going to be displayed from the ceiling. Um, that way when visitors come to see these prints, they have to interact with the art in a way that, uh, is it's a different type of approach.

You have a different type of interaction with that art. So they're going to be displayed hanging from the ceiling. Um, and then the second part of that is, um, the more interactive [00:55:00] part where I'm Photo booth set up a photo studio and a printer and whoever, if there are women who have been diagnosed who haven't been able to be a part of this project yet and would like to be a part of this project, they can come into the studio, be photographed.

Um, and I'm, I'm hiring in my wonderful friend, Heather Crutt, who is a talented artist, a talented printer. She's a, uh, also a rep in the photo industry. Uh, she's going to be coming in to print on site. So. Women can physically write on their prints there. So it won't be on the iPad anymore. It'll be physically written.

So I'll have the markers there, um, and then we'll digitize them and they'll get hung up with everybody else in the gallery. Um, that way, they are kind of part of the, they're part of this, this. It's a beautiful group, and anyone who wants to participate can participate. So, um, yeah, there's there's two aspects to it, and both are just as important, playing off each other.

[00:56:00] I'm very, very excited, and I think what's most exciting for me is that... All of the women who have been photographed so far, everyone will be there except for one that I know of. Unfortunately, she already has a prior commitment, so she won't be there. But they will all be together in the same room with their families, with their friends.

It's, like I said, a public event, so anyone can join. And seeing them able to interact together, most of them don't know each other. Only a few of them do. And a few of them just met recently, so it'll be nice to really have them. All together. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds great. That sounds like a good event. So the, the, just restate the location and the dates, and of course we'll put the links to everything in the blog post or the show notes for this episode, you know, and over to your website as well, but just, just for those who are listening and scratching down things on a piece of paper, what are the dates and, uh, the location, city, et cetera.

So that's going to be at Bivouac Cidery in San Diego, um, from 2 to 5 in the afternoon [00:57:00] on Sunday, November 5th. There you go. Perfect. Perfect. Alright, and then what's next? I'm guessing, you know, I feel like there's a book in this, like a photo book. Is that, uh, is that the next step for this? I would love that.

I have considered that. I would love that. I would absolutely love that. Um, I'm going to take a little break in December, um, from... From this just for a minute. So after the event in November, I'm going to take a little break just to kind of recoup. Um, and I have had, I've had women reach out from all over.

I've, I have a map in Google Maps listed overlaid with different pins where women have reached out from that can't be here to be photographed. Um, and the idea with the fundraising actually is Not just to, to, to support the, uh, the current production, but also to potentially travel in to, to fly in or, or train [00:58:00] in or drive in a woman who would like to participate from out of state to be able to participate at the event.

Um, because there are people who have reached out from all over the world. I have people in the UK recently reach out and say, Hey, do you plan on bringing this to the UK? Because we would really love to participate in this. And so I think that there's. There's a big, big world out there for this, and I'm ready to see it expand, and I'm ready to see it make a difference in people's lives, um, both people who are directly affected by cancers and who are indirectly affected by cancers.

Um, you know, like our, our conversation today, I really appreciate you being in, invested in being curious about this topic and not being afraid to ask questions and, and being intrigued by it, um, because it's not. It's not limited to anyone. It affects everyone. Everyone on the planet. And it's not going away as far as I know, right?

It's uh, it's gonna be here for a minute. So, you or someone you know will likely, knock [00:59:00] on wood, not to wish anything on anybody, but You know, the likelihood of people being affected even tangentially by the disease is very high. So yeah, yeah, yeah. Think, think, uh, you know, thank goodness for every day that you have that you don't have a diagnosis because then, yeah, we know, we kind of know what happens behind that.

Um, let's, let's wrap up with this. Um, Erica, what, uh, like where, how are you feeling? Right now. So what, like, just personally, where are you in your journey and how are you feeling right now and what's the, what does the future feel like for you, you know, both as just a carbon based life form and as a creative, like, what's, uh, what's the, what's the status?

Oh, um, well, I, I'm really proud of. What has happened with my last few years of life. I would not be the same person today had I not been affected by cancer directly like I [01:00:00] was. I have made a lot of change in my life and I'm very happy to still be changing and be ready to face whatever comes next. Um, so I think that I'm, I'm feeling very proud of my last few years and very excited for, for what's to come both within this project and outside of this project.

Um. Hey, I'm, I'm leaving the Tititi Workshop next week in Iceland, actually, so I will be in one of the most beautiful places in the world, hopefully dancing under the Northern Lights, teaching some other wonderful photographers how to, how to do the same. So I am really excited to just continue with life with what I know now, because I know more right now than I did 10 minutes ago, than I did 6 hours ago, than I did 6 months ago.

So, I'm just excited to keep going. That's great. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And that's good. And like I said, I know we talked a couple of weeks ago in our pre interview. Happy to carry bags [01:01:00] in Iceland if you need help there, you know, assistance, you know. You can scout out some volcanoes or whatever.

Just be part of the photographic group that's running around. Are they done? Like, is, I know Iceland had a, some seismic or some volcanic activity over there recently. Is all that, is all that kind of settled down, or? You know, I don't know that I want to make any clear statement because I feel like the second I do, something's gonna pop off.

Um, I'm pretty sure they're just one giant volcano. And don't quote me on that. I'm not a geologist. But I'm, I'm fairly certain that it is the most volcanically active. place on earth. Um, I did just read that Alaska is incredibly, uh, volcanically and earthquake prone. So, um, as is yellow, but yeah, yeah, that, yeah, that too.

Um, yeah, there's a caldera, a caldera underneath yellow, yellow stone, which is basically a giant lake of lava. That's a way

to [01:02:00] like, you know, decimate parts of the Midwestern and Western United States. Or at least change the geography. Let's not add to your website and

all that stuff. And, of course, this project. And. Yeah, yeah, we'll leave it there. Thank you for putting this together and I'm looking forward to buying that book. So make sure you get the, when you're on the plane to Iceland, we start working on the strategy and the outline for the book, you know, so we can start buying it.

Yeah. Oh, for sure. I will. I'll make sure that you're like, you're inscribed in there. This is too Frederick. Thanks, buddy. Thank you. Somewhere in there, somewhere, you know, it could even be in code or something. Just stick it in there somewhere. A little QR code. Stick a little QR code in there. Oh my God. Yes.

And then it can just be a little video of you that plays when the [01:03:00] QR code. Done. Yeah. Yeah, Rick roll. Perfect. All right. Anything else you want to throw out there to the audience? Um, I did. I want to make sure that I think the people who have already been involved in this project. Um, I I've been working with Bay photo who is going to sponsor the prints that will be printed at the event.

And These beautiful prints are going to be gifted to the women who are a part of it. So I want to make sure that I really thank them because without them, this would be 10 times more difficult. And I am so grateful that they are a part of it. Um, I really want to thank Pink Strength, my local San Diego nonprofit, who again, without them, 10 times more difficult.

Um, they are like these little elves behind the scenes that just. put together so much for the AYA, the adolescent and young adult breast cancer community in San Diego. So Pink Strength, thank you so much. And Christian, co founding president of Pink Strength, [01:04:00] my resty from the community. If it wasn't for her, I probably wouldn't have left the house.

So there's that. Um, and, uh, my friend, Heather Crott, who's going to be coming in doing the printing at the event. My friend, Sarah strict, who's going to be coming in and doing the video for the event. I have just such a big, beautiful team and, uh, my family, my mom and my sister, um, who took me all through treatment and my sister, my mom is still putting up with me today with all of my stuff.

So, um, I know that most of my family will be coming out to the event, and I'm just, uh, so grateful. So, yes. Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely. Pleasure is all mine. You gotta come back and tell us about the Iceland trip and how that went, and just generally keep in touch on the project and the book and all that.

You know, see, I'm subliminally putting the book in there. You are. And I noticed you slipped Dyson in there again. I feel like I'm just going to show up. You're going to be on the plane already. So yeah, exactly. Exactly. How'd you get in this seat? I [01:05:00] wish I could go. I really wish I could go. Okay, so we'll leave it right there.

Erica Robinson, thank you so much for coming on and and sharing your journey with us and being so inspiring and using photography as a tool, you know, your superpower of photography as a tool to help other people. So thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Thank you. I appreciate you. Thank you to everyone who's listening.